Over at Joe's anti Mars Hill website- http://riseandfallofmarshill.blogspot.com/
Joe has responded to my Hebrews 13:17 appeal to him. Here is my response (this will probably be my last as I fear Joe is not up for an extended rational dialogue).
North of Purgatory
Monday, November 26, 2007
Sunday, November 25, 2007
Response To- The Rise and Fall of Mark Driscoll (Mars Hill Church)
I attend Mars Hill Church in Seattle. Lately, God has been pleased to bring us into a great season of pruning, judgment and learning. I thank God for this time because though these events in themselves are dark and difficult God will use them for his glory. I love Pastors Paul and Bent and pray that both will be fully reconciled with Mars Hill and the elders. I pray that repentance will be granted wherever it is needed and that all involved will show the necessary humility. That being said I think it is very sad that a current member of Mars Hill has created a blog called, "The Rise and Fall of Mark Driscoll (Mars Hill Church)".
http://riseandfallofmarshill.blogspot.com/
I am not commenting on his content of his complaints but rather on his tactic of taking public what needs to be familial (at least among the members of MH if not just with the elders).
I take this approach because I firmly believe that regardless of any merit in his complaints he has no Biblical justification for what he is doing. Joe (the fake name of this member) seems passionate for the Word of God and for the people of God. For this I applaud him. However, this passion seems to have left out a passion for the difficult submission that that same Word calls us to. Hebrews 13 gives an unqualified call to submit to our elders. Obviously we cannot obey even an elders command to disobey the Bible but so far Joe has not complained that an elder has made such a request of him. As a current member Joe is called to submit to particular elders (those at Mars Hill). Joe doesn't have to go to Mars Hill so he could be faithful by leaving and joining a church where he can submit but he should not and cannot continue his blog against Mars Hill. Please read Hebrews 13:17 for yourself and determine if Joe is acting righteously. I see no qualifications about the obedience called for in that verse and no justification for Joe's outright rebellion.
I believe that the call for obedience is specifically for men like Joe (and often myself) who are likely to often be troubled by the actions of leaders. When we agree with everything this is not the time that we are obeying. If I give my wife $200 and tell her to go to Nordstrom's and buy some new clothes she can hardly say she is obeying me. However, when I tell her we must do something that is very difficult for her and she outright does not want to do (an example might be moving to a new city) now she is truly showing obedience. The recent events at Mars Hill have been difficult for many and I personally have had to learn obedience at a new level. For this I am thankful and I would invite Joe to humble himself and to follow Hebrews 13:17 even if it just out of respect for God. There is a great blessing in "saluting the uniform" and then trusting God to bring about the just resolution we long to see. I do not know Joe and though I do not necessarily agree with him I sympathize with any man who sees what he believes is injustice and wants to respond. I believe Joe does have an avenue to respond and that is to speak with the elders and other leaders at the church with his concerns. Until he does that I believe he is on the same side of rebellion and arrogance he accuses the elders of being on.
http://riseandfallofmarshill.blogspot.com/
I am not commenting on his content of his complaints but rather on his tactic of taking public what needs to be familial (at least among the members of MH if not just with the elders).
I take this approach because I firmly believe that regardless of any merit in his complaints he has no Biblical justification for what he is doing. Joe (the fake name of this member) seems passionate for the Word of God and for the people of God. For this I applaud him. However, this passion seems to have left out a passion for the difficult submission that that same Word calls us to. Hebrews 13 gives an unqualified call to submit to our elders. Obviously we cannot obey even an elders command to disobey the Bible but so far Joe has not complained that an elder has made such a request of him. As a current member Joe is called to submit to particular elders (those at Mars Hill). Joe doesn't have to go to Mars Hill so he could be faithful by leaving and joining a church where he can submit but he should not and cannot continue his blog against Mars Hill. Please read Hebrews 13:17 for yourself and determine if Joe is acting righteously. I see no qualifications about the obedience called for in that verse and no justification for Joe's outright rebellion.
I believe that the call for obedience is specifically for men like Joe (and often myself) who are likely to often be troubled by the actions of leaders. When we agree with everything this is not the time that we are obeying. If I give my wife $200 and tell her to go to Nordstrom's and buy some new clothes she can hardly say she is obeying me. However, when I tell her we must do something that is very difficult for her and she outright does not want to do (an example might be moving to a new city) now she is truly showing obedience. The recent events at Mars Hill have been difficult for many and I personally have had to learn obedience at a new level. For this I am thankful and I would invite Joe to humble himself and to follow Hebrews 13:17 even if it just out of respect for God. There is a great blessing in "saluting the uniform" and then trusting God to bring about the just resolution we long to see. I do not know Joe and though I do not necessarily agree with him I sympathize with any man who sees what he believes is injustice and wants to respond. I believe Joe does have an avenue to respond and that is to speak with the elders and other leaders at the church with his concerns. Until he does that I believe he is on the same side of rebellion and arrogance he accuses the elders of being on.
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Joe, you said:
"As for the Hebrews 13:17 command, you seem to think that we should obey without the latter part of the command being kept? "for they are keeping watch over your souls," Are they watching over our souls? They are certainly preaching over them, and making sure we are in line. But firing the people that are watching over our souls kinda voids the command, i think."
Not to be rude but your exegesis of this verse needs some work. Your exegesis of my comments is spot on though- even if these men were not watching over our souls even then I still believe God has called members of that local body to submit to those elders.
Also, where does it say firing people who watch over our souls voids the command to obey the other elders? That being said I am not happy that Bent and Paul have been fired but I do know that I a God given duty to respond in a mature Christian manner to things that I do not personally like.
Additionally, Hebrews 13 itself does not leave as an option the idea that elders do not watch over our souls. The verse states a contrary fact- elders watch over our souls. Now we can debate whether they watch well or watch poorly but this is not my point here. You make an "if this then this" statement where the Word of God does not. It does not say you are excused from obedience simply because you don't "think" the elders are watching over our souls. Your ego centered feelings do not change the inescapable truth that the elders of Mars Hill are watching over our souls. That they are is evident and proven by the Word of God even if it is not evident in your experience.
And hypothetically even if they were not watching over our souls (which would make the Word of God untrue in what it plainly states) this does not remove the command that God has placed on you. I will admit submitting to leaders is a challenging thing for many people- including myself (especially recently) but since I love and wish to obey God I will submit to the elders he has placed over me as long as doing so does not cause me to sin or violate my own conscience. If it came down to them asking me to sin or to violate my own conscience I would approach them with this fact and if there was no resolution I would leave peacefully and pray for them while trusting God to deal with them. This is what I encourage you to do. Remove the plank from your own eye by shutting down this site and seek resolution with the elders. If it is not forthcoming please invite a faithful brother to go with you and confront them again. If you still find no resolution I would encourage you to pray about what God would have you do- whether to remain in humble disagreement or leave to find elders you can submit to.
Finally, God's call to submit is not a quid pro quo. To put it simply God has called you to submit to the elders whether or not you think they are watching over your soul just as my wife must submit to me whether or not I love her as Christ loves the church and I must love her in that way regardless of whether she is submitting to me or not. If I do not love her in that manner then I am in great sin and must repent or face the judgment of God but even this does not give her free pass to rebel against me.
Joe I pray that you would rethink the path you have chosen and be reconciled to Mars Hill in a manner worthy of Christ. Even if you feel these elders are acting horribly and unbiblical it gives you no right to act similarly- it only makes you guilty of the same sin you accuse them of. I also pray that you would join me in praying that all involved would show a similar humility and repent of all the sin that has gone on these last few months and that we would see everyone involved restored and fully reconciled.
November 26, 2007 9:47 PM